36 “The king (the anti-Christ) will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods (https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2%20Thessalonians%202%3A4) He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed [7 year Tribulation; i.e. last 3 ½ years as Jacob’s Trouble], for what has been determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all. 38[This is the same description that scripture gives of the anti-Christ; II Thessalonians 2:4] Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will *distribute the land at a price.
*Socialism at its best of false promises. It has been and always will at the expense of achievers, previous ownership, earned rights to any property, best defined as bribery or redistribution of wealth but only to those who will follow the so-called white horse ‘peace maker’ anti-Christ.
40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots (armored tanks; military vehicles?] and cavalry [Infantry] and a great fleet of ships.
JIV NOTE: “At this time of the end…” This is a critical Daniel passage very much needed to better help our understanding of a previous article in this study per a future yet not here. We previously discussed the fact that neither the Jewish people nor the Islamists will relinquish their (G)god to follow the other. We stated that by comparison of the Ptolemy (Egypt) and the Seleucid (Syria) kingdoms of Daniel 11 we discover a two-pronged prophecy. The first prophetic prong has already been fulfilled between the time of Alexander the Great and the time of the Roman Empire. The second prong is the End Time 70th week of Daniel’s Seventy 7s; that is, the 7 year tribulation. We very possibly will have a northern anti-Christ kingdom and a southern Islamist kingdom. They both will challenge each other…until Jesus Christ comes to finish it all by setting up HIS millennial kingdom.
He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood [Antiochus IV did this after Rome warned him to make a decision before stepping out of the circle in the sand]. 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land [Jerusalem/today’s Israel. Antiochus IV did this after being ejected from Egypt by the Romans]. Many countries will fall, but [the territories of…] *Edom, *Moaband the leaders of *Ammonwill be delivered from his hand [*Land of Jordan today, 2020]. 42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will [eventually] not escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cushites (Nubians/Ethiopians) in submission. 44 But reports from the east [possibly China] and the north [possibly Russia] will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he [antichrist] will come to his end, and no one will help him.
JIV NOTE: To-date , the above paragraph has not come about in history; only parts of it materialized under the wrath of Antiochus IV. It is yet to be played out by forces we are not yet able to specifically name and identify. We know their generic (pronoun) identities from Daniel 11 as a ruler of the north and a ruler of the south. When Christ returns to set up HIS millennial Kingdom, there will be none to stop this from happening. There will be no one to come to the aid of either the king of the north or the king of the south.
Oddly, and according to the silent media, Russia through Hungary has already succeeded at signing an “oil field development contract” with Israel in this territory. (see map to the right; agreement signed between Zion Oil & Gas and Acoustic Geophysical Services KFT (“AGS”), an international seismic company based in Budapest, Hungary.
This is where Daniel swings into full future prophecy; prophecy yet to be completed in 2020 or beyond. Some fundamental theologians suggest this is evidenced beginning around verse 36 (We suggest beginning the dual prong prophecy begins in Daniel 11:22) until the end of this chapter. The absolute historical accuracy of verses 11:1-36 makes many historians, mediocre bible believers and historical bible revisionists want to suggest that this portion of Daniel was written AFTER the fact. If true, Daniel 11:1-36 was inserted in the text of the Book of Daniel long after this history/prophecy was complete after Daniel was deceased. In turn, this suggests that the prophecy was not futuristic, but history after the fact denying the inspired, infallibility of scripture and prophecy. [This is the secularist’s and liberal preacher point of view; denying scripture prophecy as telling of a future that had not yet become a history]
The underlying doubt of such a rather naïve suggestion is that verses 36 to the end of this chapter are part of a history but cannot be connected to any historical events. Such scripture revisionists are not real bible believers and don’t want to admit that Daniel’s prophecies came from his own hand inspired of God therefore denying prophetic words. They want the bible to be good, but not THAT GOOD AND ACCURATE. This in itself [End Time prophecy] is how those who play church [but in my own personal opinion] are singing from the wrong songbook.
Thank you for taking the time to read this for yourself. It took me many months of research to find the correct secular and historical names with events to fit the passages between verse 1 and 36/37. If I made any error it is unintentional. I could suggest that this transliteration of is about as close to actuality as we will get until God sends his Son to redeem and rapture the Church, telling us the real facts as recorded in Daniel 11. I suspect we won’t really care at that time. Praise God and pray for His quick return.
Dr. Jstark 2-25-2012/11-11-2013 Revised February 2020
There is so much parallel between the Book of Daniel and Revelation, a simple blog could not begin to conclude. The truly amazing facts are not so much the content as the fact that both books speak to the same thing. God’s direction is powerful today (N.T.) and yesterday (O.T.). Simply put and without explanation in this blog is that Daniel sets the stage for the Book of Revelation. We get details in Revelation than Daniel can only infer. It is also a special note that what Daniel saw as individual creatures, Apostle John sees as ONE 10 horned beast; [Revelation 13:2] “And the beast which I saw was like to a leopard, and its feet as of a bear, and its mouth as a lion’s mouth.” Who might be the combined military or governmental forces that are represented as a leopard, bear and lion of Revelation? Recall that the Dragon and the Beast are two different entities.
One Step Closer to Pulling Things Together
Chapter 17 of Revelation takes us a step closer to figuring this out. We have the dragon, beast 1 and beast 2, the image of beast 1, a red dragon with multiple heads and horns, a woman riding the beast which soon those in charge turn against it rider, four forces converging on Har Megiddo, the seventh bowl, kings in some symbolic adultery with the woman on the beast, blasphemous names, a mysterious Babylon the Great, a book of life and names not in it, three symbolic frogs hopping nation to nation to call to arms these ignorant arrogant millennial losers, a speaking image of beast #1, 10 unnamed kings (for an hour) who then hand over their authority to the anti-Christ…
…no wonder people’s heads spin when trying to put this all together as one orchestrated sequence of events leading the return of Jesus the Messiah.
We MUST remind ourselves that the mind of God is so far greater than ours, it should be a simple thing to understand that our mental capacities are not equal to God’s, but our faith and hearts should be totally online. If not, then we need to check with our spiritual internet provider; what I enjoy calling our spiritual GPS; Gods Provided Seal on our forehead.
The very first thing we see in C17 is Apostle John in a bit of a dither. This is when I default to Young’s Literal Translation (YLT) as it is probably the most “literal” translation of scripture; but often difficult to read just for that reason. We say, the boy went to the game. YLT in in its literal translation would write, the games is to which the by went. Other translations try to simplify their translation but often lose something(s) in the process.
For this reason I include the YLT of C17: (1898) – All emphasis mine
And there came one of the seven *messengers, who were having the seven vials, and he spake with me, saying to me, `Come, I will shew to thee the judgment of the great whore, who is sitting upon the many waters, *often meaning angels
2 with whom the kings of the earth did commit whoredom; and made drunk from the wine of her whoredom were those inhabiting the earth;’
3 and he carried me away to a wilderness in the Spirit, and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of evil-speaking, having seven heads and ten horns,
4 and the woman was arrayed with purple and scarlet-colour, and gilded with gold, and precious stone, and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and uncleanness of her whoredom,
5 and upon her forehead was a name written: `Secret, Babylon the Great, the Mother of the Whores, and the Abominations of the earth.’
6 And I saw the woman drunken from the blood of the saints, and from the blood of the witnesses of Jesus, and I did wonder — having seen her — with great wonder;
7 and the messenger said to me, `Wherefore didst thou wonder? I — I will tell thee the secret of the woman and of the beast that [is] carrying her, which hath the seven heads and the ten horns.
8 `The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.
9 `Here [is] the mind that is having wisdom; the seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman doth sit,
10 and there are seven kings, the five did fall, and the one is, the other did not yet come, and when he may come, it behoveth him to remain a little time;
11 and the beast that was, and is not, he also is eighth, and out of the seven he is, and to destruction he doth go away.
12 `And the ten horns that thou sawest, are ten kings, who a kingdom did not yet receive, but authority as kings the same hour do receive with the beast,
13 these have one mind, and their own power and authority to the beast they shall give over;
14 these with the Lamb shall make war, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because Lord of lords he is, and King of kings, and those with him are called, and choice, and stedfast.’
15 And he saith to me, `The waters that thou didst see, where the whore doth sit, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues;’
16 and the ten horns that thou didst see upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her in fire,
17 for God did give into their hearts to do its mind, and to make one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast till the sayings of God may be complete,
18 and the woman that thou didst see is the great city that is having reign over the kings of the land.
Before moving on I feel totally compelled to issue a warning by example. During this end of time Tribulation, Satan will confuse many with false prophets, so-called miracles, a silver tongue of persuasion, unmatched deceit and a look-good universal church. Look at the picture on the right. If you look real close one can see the weeds that have grown up so close to the real flowers, one can easily be deceived into thinking the weeds are actually part of the flower arrangement. This is what Satan’s church will look like during the first 3 ½ years of the Tribulation. These fake flowers of beauty are so close in proximity to the genuine, one easily misses them.
Gradually more and more look-similar and delicate, but weeds grow up amongst the real thing. So close in proximity even the gardener will miss them. Eventually they overtake the garden while one stays politically and garden correct by watering, tolerating and wishing to be inoffensive to the garden saying it takes too much time to clean them out. They are allowed to be a part of the garden via compromise or failure to recognize they are plants but NOT flowers. This is precisely what is happening in our churches today.
Examples of what these weeds will look like:
A song sung in church with a great tune but unidentifiable as a praise or worship song
A person whose tithing is a goodly share of the church budget but demands political correctness be exercised within the church; not identifying or giving warning of sin.
Pastors who fear calling out sin as defined in the Bible; Ephesians. Don’t be offensive.
Board members who command weight and influence within the church, a community, city or politics but have little to no bible knowledge.
Those willing to sit in the pews and not overtly stand on the promises of God.
Inter and intra denominational bickering that leads to separation of church and church. There is but ONE CHURCH of which Jesus Christ is the head; not the pope or St. Peter.
Churches that teach good living and self-improvement while ignoring the WORD.
Beautiful buildings with debt that requires a congregation of several #2’s (above) to pay the debt.
Singers and instrumentalists on the Praise Team who are really good but live lives unbecoming of The Church of Jesus Christ.
Prayer that is not in the spirit as commanded in Romans 8 (study the entire chapter).
Take a moment of pause while using your weed-sin pulling tools and write in more cautions from which will come the universal false church. [Mark 13:22, Matthew 24:24]
During the final 3 ½ years (Tribulation) there will no longer be any doubt. Satan sets himself up in the Temple of God in Jerusalem, slaughters Jews and those who refuse to bow the knee to him while claims to be God. Those who refuse to worship will be shrewdly eliminated.
Back to our study; C17:1 – 6 (we will pick up on more of 17 in our next blog)
The first six verses set the somewhat mystery stage of dragon, woman, fornicators, scarlet beast,…with their explanations in the remainder of C17. Let’s look at them.
The beast that was, is not, and is about to come up from the abyss then go away to destruction is often identified with the Roman Church of the dark and pre-dark ages. It wasn’t until Napoleon disposed of the Pope who ultimately died in prison do we get the “then it was not.” The future and news worthy items today per the pontiff and his decrees show the Roman Church and its global influence is once again asserting [coming alive] itself.
Drunken (17:6) from the blood of the saints can be present or past tense. Most likely it is a continuum or revival of the Holy Roman Empire that replaced the original Roman Empire. Still considered the Roman Empire but with the innocuous word “holy” as the first word in the title. However we read “the blood of the Saints and of those who witness of Jesus.” The saints are those from the past and those who witness and are present at this time of bloodshed.
The name or word antichrist can mean either the opposite ofChrist OR instead of Christ. In our study it is probably both; the “opposite” as in opposing AND “instead of” such as a Satanic substitute. This would include the ancient worship of idols or a future “false christ” performing miracles as a form of persuasion that HE is the Christ; not the one from the New Testament. Jesus specifically warns about this. When Jesus Christ returns to earth it is not to demonstrate anything, but to take possession of his earth and out of the hands and influence of Satan. He will appear in the eastern skies, put foot on the Mount of Olives and claim his kingship as King of kings. He will NOT be some political figure. His appearance is at the very end of the 7 year Tribulation and after the last 7 plagues.
The rider on the white horse in the apocalypse comes to make peace; a false sense of security for Israel AND the rest of the turbulent waters or nations of this world. The word antichrist never appears in Revelation. It only appears in 1 John (3 times; twice in one verse) and once in 2 John. Of course this is the same John who writes Revelation but never uses the word anti-Christ in this final book in the bible.
*This in and of itself suggests it could be of the Tribe of Judah or Levi who is the real antichrist. This may also suggest that this is why the nation of Israel accepts the peace treaty offered by this leader. He is a Jew!?
In Revelation 12 John presents this beast as the extension of the fourth beast of Daniel 7, connecting his empire with the characteristics of the great empires of the past. This final world empire will have the catlike vigilance of a leopard, the lumbering but crushing power of a bear, the authority and ferociousness and stalking power of a lion. In chapter 13 he describes the “beast” as a combined creature of Daniel’s dream; resembling a leopard; feet of a bear; mouth like a lion but a singular beast. In the Book of Daniel these world powers had yet to come. In Revelation, it is the combined power represented by these animals that force the world into a singular governed economy. These animals are popularly recognized as Babylon, Mede-Persian, Greek, then, Rome.
It is a fascinating discussion per 13:2b:
The dragon will give this critter His power; His throne; great authority. Certainly Satan has in the past and continues to make earth HIS DOMAIN and possession. He gives it all to this critter from the Sea. This is very similar to Matthew 28:18. Christ makes this claim of power and authority as from God his biological the Father.
Verse 3 tells of the deadly wound at which the whole world must be aware. However, there is no indication as to who is the one striking this deadly blow to him; It SEEMED (hōs) to have a deadly blow to one of its heads. This same Greek word is translated as something that appears to be so, but is not definitive. “…and all the world wondered after the beast.” This [first] beast is not an institution, nationality, or organization as many denominations and theological theorists suggest, but a person. This is Satan’s effort to once again parallel anything and everything God created or did, including the sacrifice and resurrection of one of his own if not a direct bodily possession of a man who is dead but possessed of Satan and then appears to be alive. Scary thought!
What we have so far in Revelation 13:1-10:
Beast from the Sea
A dragon who gives this beast from the sea his powers, throne, and authority.
A wounded head among the multi-headed beast that “appears” to be fatal.
A step back, but Daniel 7 is the parallel scripture to Revelation 13
NOTE: It is good to recall or learn that the 4th beast of Daniel 7 is NOT IDENTIFIED as a creature he recognizes. Daniel 7:19… “the fourth best is diverse from all the others.” This is probably so as the other three beasts can be identified to kingdoms in the past. The fourth beast is described but of unknown quantities, symbolisms, and prophetic clarity. This is also true of Revelation 13:1 & 11.
Another fascinating note is the language used in Daniel 7:26; i.e. the word “THEY.” “…and THEY shall take away his dominion to consume and to destroy it unto the end.” It is the court according to scripture, but who is the court? This is worth researching on one’s own in order to take ownership of the results.
At verse 4 of chapter 13 we see that mankind will be deceived but accepting to the worship of this 1st beast AND the Dragon father. The warning comes in chapter 14 that if anyone who worships this beast and/or its image, they have committed the eternal sin for which there is no longer any forgiveness.
There are some, however, who believe this to fit the passage that reads, “he was, then is not, but then is again” [Revelation 17:11]. This might be the rise, death then resurrection of the old Roman Empire through the Vatican; i.e. the Pope’s:
1 global power until the 1700’s when Napoleon stripped him of it,
2 noninvolvement in secular world affairs for several hundred years after Napoleon,
3 revived involvement in politics and environmental discussions as we see it today.
Verses 4 & 5 suggest the same thing that God did for his son Jesus while he was on earth and right after his resurrection; he gave all power/authority in heaven and earth to Jesus his son – Matthew 28:18. This was right after his resurrection (read Ephesians 1:20-23). This again is a parallel to and a false deception propagated by Satan himself when he simulates this with his false trinity. There is often discussion of the meaning or purpose or function of the “little horn” in Daniel 7:8. One might suggest this is the “Son of Satan” just as Jesus is the Son of God. Martin Luther and John Calvin believed this little horn to be Islam. He is the one who rises up as the little horn and plucks three rebelling horns out of his circle or power.
Stay tuned while considering the following:
Question: Do these passages suggest that predestination is established for certain pre-identified individuals or for those who use his/her free will to follow Christ? [Blue Letter Bible]
– The work of Jesus was ordained before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20)
– God chose His redeemed before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)
– *Names are written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world (Revelation 17:8)
– The kingdom of heaven was prepared for the redeemed before the foundation of the world (Matthew 25:34)
Answer: No! These passages mean that God preordained his chosen people Israel to be a light unto the rest of the world even though they have failed so to do, and, FROM the point of creation of the earth, man, and its inhabitants. *This passage is misquoted from Revelation 17:8. 17:8 does not say the names are written before the creation of the world, but since or from the point of creation forward “names are written into the book of life.” The Ephesian passage is written out of context. God has chosen us (to be) in him before the foundation of the world. This is what he hoped for Adam and Eve. They failed him.
Mankind has a free will of choice. Once we accept Christ as Lord and Savior, we fall into the predestination of becoming a child of God; brother to Jesus. It is predestined that those who accept Jesus and follow him will have salvation. Those who chose to follow and worship him are predestined to be called children of God. It is discussing the who but the process of HOW it happens.
A senior House of Representatives Democrat said Tuesday [May 2015] that the White House’s description of supposed progress in the war against the Islamic State should ring “alarm bells,” and called the fall of the city of Ramadi to the extremists “a very serious and significant setback.” [emphasis mine]
“I don’t think we’re losing the war, but I don’t think we’re making tremendous progress either,” Rep. Adam Schiff, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, told reporters.
It is common knowledge to those who search for it, the world troubles have centered around the Middle East for centuries if not a couple of millennia. I like how T.O.W. editor Chris? put it; when John noted the “end is near, he didn’t mean he would see end time but that the Kingdom of God is ‘in your face’”. One better be prepared. I remember as a Boy Scout, the motto “Be Prepared.” What has changed? Nothing has so being prepared is always in our face.
The late John Walvoord of author and research fame at Dallas Theological Seminary, in one of his books on Revelation, he notes the following chapter by chapter identities:
Brief on Revelation:
The Thing That You Have Seen
The Letters to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, and Thyatira
The Letters to Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea
The Church in Heaven
The Lamb and the Seven-Sealed Book
The Beginning of the Great Day of God’s Wrath
The Saints of the Great Tribulation
The Seventh Seal and the Beginning of the Trumpets
The Fifth and Sixth Trumpets: The First and Second Woes
The Mighty Angel with the Little Scroll
The Two Witnesses and the Seventh Trumpet
The Conflict in Heaven and on Earth
The Two Beasts
The Victory of the Lamb and His Followers
The Vision of the Seven Last Plagues
The Bowls of God’s Wrath
The Destruction of Ecclesiastical Babylon
The Fall of Babylon
The Second Coming of Christ
The Reign of Christ
The New Heaven and the New Earth
Concluding Revelations and Exhortations
Note that the late John Walvoord, as do I (this site’s author), believe the church is GONE in chapter 4. I suggested in my previous Revelation posting that the church rapture happens between the end of chapter 3 and 4:2 of Revelation.
Chapter 4 is a description of Heaven itself. This is what the redeemed will see upon his or her arrival at the “pearly Gates”. If Walvoord describes chapter 4 as “the church in heaven” and chapter 4 is a detailed description of heaven, the supposition that a chapter 4 church rapture is near if not ON the bull’s eye.
Today I wish to challenge each reader with the some of the arguments against a pre-tribulation point of view. Revelation Commentary.orgis a good example. Their research and articles are well written, reasonably sensible, but dead set against pre-tribulation. Here is their scriptural argument against a pre-tribulation view point. …and I quote:
“There are at least nine different references to the church in Revelation 4-19:
Every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 5:9c
A kingdom and priest, 5:10
Fifth seal martyrs, 6:9
A multitude, 7:9; 19:5-6
Bond-servants, 11:18; 19:2, 5
Our brethren, 12:10
The rest of her children, 12:17
Saints, 13:7, 10; 14:12; 18:20, 24
Wife, 19:7” (end quote)
(We will discuss the first 7 as all are self-evident to be out of context when examined)
Let’s look at seven of their supposed points used to contest pre-tribulation views.
First, recall that the restrainer, often referred to as the Holy Spirit, is part of the God-head. That means he is omnipresent. He is everywhere all the time and cannot be denied existence. II Thessalonians 2:5-8 is as good of a reference to this part of study as any. It says:
“2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let,until he be taken out of the way.” (study note: what v6; he v7)
“…until he is taken out of the way.” Without getting too theologically steeped in Greek, there are a few things to consider per the Greek. As always, when something of fact is stated in the Bible or life itself, look for the context. In scripture study, read and study the pre and post verses. In life events, be more than simply aware of something; include understanding and find convincing evidence that one has the facts within and around the issue of concern or study.
In II Thessalonians 2 Paul is warning those in Thessalonica, and alerting us who are currently alive. To be “taken out of the way” in no way suggests that the restrainer is removed from the scene. Many times in watching football, a defensive back is “taken out of the way” by a blocker. This doesn’t mean he was no longer in the game. The same is true here. The restrainer withholding the wicked one is no longer doing so. He is omnipresent so he is still present. But, and this is a significant BUT, the wicked one (Satan) is given opportunity for 42 months to fulfill scripture and prophecy without the imposing of restraints.
I point out that there are many interpretations or views as to who is or what might be the restrainer. The Greek for restrainer is ka-te’-kho. It simply means “to hold back.”
The Greek for restrainer is ka-te’-kho. It simply means “to hold back.” The English restrain as you see defined in this IMAGE is similar but not the same.
Regardless of any who or what, God’s will or word is good enough to withhold the evil one. As is the warning by the Apostle Paul, the restraints on Satan, the lawless one and/or the anti-Christ or dragon are withdrawn for but a season. This in NO WAY means the omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent God is gone. People will recognize Christ as Savior during the tribulation, but that will mean they become the focus for elimination by the evil one.
Here we discuss one-by-one, published arguments against pre-tribulationism:
Argument #1 against pre-tribulation: Every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 5:9c
To simplify the challenge of this argument against pre-tribulation, read the next verse. It is a continuation of verse 9 so should be read as one statement or sentence.. 10 “…and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” This is not a reference to saints during the Tribulation time, but during the Millennial Reign of Christ on earth; His earthly millennial kingdom reign. This argument is taken out of context. Go back to my warning above; “…until he is taken out of the way.”Where the restrainer was taken out of the way for a season, Satan is now taken out of the way for the 1,000 year reign of Christ from Jerusalem.
Argument #2 against pre-tribulation:A kingdom and priest, v10 of chapter 5
The same counter for argument #1 also addresses #2 in any doctrinal stance against pre-trib. This passage is not a reference to the church at all. It is post Tribulation era scripture; Christ’s kingdom on earth in Jerusalem. The end of this verse states… “and they shall reign ON EARTH.” Is there even a shred of evidence prior to or during the Great Tribulation “priests to our God” are reigning on earth? NONE! Therefore either the church (believers in Jesus Christ) have been redeemed and have returned to earth with Christ, or there is no meeting Christ in the clouds; i.e. a rapture.
Argument #3 against pre-tribulation: Fifth seal martyrs, 6:9
“When he opened the 5th seal, I saw under the alter souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.”
This passage is post-rapture and mid-tribulation. The evil one, Satan, anti-Christ or the dragon will target any new Christians who accept Christ as savior during the Great Tribulation. Those identified in this passage are those who accept Christ during the tribulation. The supposed ‘wonder of peace and understanding,’ Satan himself is initially disguised as a redeemer and peacemaker; somewhat tolerant until the mid-point of 3 ½ years into the Tribulation. It is these Christians John sees “…under the alter.” If this is not so, then those who believed and trusted in Jesus Christ but were not “slain for the word of God” they are not and never were/are souls under the alter. This of itself highly suggests these poor souls not under the alter never had a relationship with Jesus Christ as his or her savior. They are as lost as the heathen who openly rejects such a plan of salvation.
The Holy Spirit is still present, but the restraining of Satan is temporarily set aside. Yes, the souls under the alter, slain during the tribulation cry out “…how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on earth?” These souls are those slain during the tribulation. Since the church has already been raptured, the souls of the tribulation Christians remain (under the alter) until the 2nd advent and millennial reign of Jesus Christ.
Look at the obvious in the words found in 6:9 themselves… under the alter? There is no new alter or Tabernacle in presently in Jerusalem, not until the first half of the Tribulation. This reference can’t be the souls since the beginning of time or the church age; i.e. the rapture has occurred. It is a reference to those who actually suffered death under the rule of the evil-one and during the Great Tribulation when the restrainer is temporarily set aside. It is their souls who cry out to the Lord for vengeance (Greek: dispotace); 2nd advent and their redemption.
Again my apology for the Greek lesson but it is noteworthy here. The words “on them” in the Greek is apo. It means a separation from the whole; whole what? Answer: Man-kind! It is the TIME when the restraining power imposed on Satan, anti-Christ, dragon or whatever, is separated from mankind as a whole. Why this distinction? John is pointing out that the whole is no longer on earth. It is Satan against the Christians who accept Christ during the Tribulation but not yet redeemed as is the Christian church at the rapture. They are waiting for the 2nd advent and their release from the grave.. under the alter.. Another point is a promise made in Old Testament times and New Testament times: Deuteronomy 31:8 (O.T.) and Hebrews 13:5 (N.T.). “I will never leave nor forsake you.” If the church is redeemed/raptured before the tribulation, God keeps his promise since he has raptured the church.
JIV NOTE: The Hebrew for forsake is ‛âzabmeaning ‘depart from or leave behind.’ In the Greek, forsake is egkataleipō meaning ‘to leave in straits or helpless.’
Argument #4a & b against pre-tribulation: A multitude, 7:9; 19:5-6
Talk about taking something out of context… WOW!!! Pure deception; the truth but not the whole truth is being stated as an argument against a pre-tribulation rapture of the Christian body of Christ sometimes poorly understood when called the church. This is gross evidence of out of context. Reading the passage content to grasp the context we see that this is a gathering around the Throne of Christ. This has nothing to do with refuting or challenging a pre-tribulation point of view. It is an event yet to happen in the timeline of God. Verse 14 says: “These (the multitude) coming out of the great tribulation…” Out of the great tribulation means those who were in the tribulation plus those who are redeemed before the tribulation. There is no way to consider this being the church alone. It specifically identifies the multitude as those who have accepted Christ as messiah (Hebrew children) and savior (Gentiles) DURING the tribulation. These are the people Left Behind and who now understand the facts of redemption.
7:9 This multitude in verse 9 is standing before the Throne of Christ. Whether one holds a pre, mid, or post Tribulation rapture point of view, all agree the “standing before the Throne” is AFTER the Great Tribulation. This verse is not evidence that pre-tribulation is either right or wrong. It also does nothing to support a mid or post-tribulation point of view.
JIV CAUTION: Don’t be party to those who listen and do not bother to double check the presented information or even turn to the reference in Bible. This includes my statements.
STUDY THE WORD for yourself!
19:5-6 (multitude argument)
V5… And from the throne came a voice saying, “Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, small and great.”
V6… Then I heard what seemed to be the voiceof a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
Verse 4 states that it is the 24 elders and the four ‘living creatures’ who now bow down in worship and it is to them that the voice gives the command to shout out. This may, but I do not know, include the angels of heaven who continuously support the God-head. Angels are often referred to as a multitude or great multitude. (One example: Luke 2:13; ESV. The NIV uses the term ‘company’)
Back up to verse 1…” After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven” [ESV]. Quickly ask ones’ self, after what? Answer: After the judgment of the harlot and from those souls under the alter asking for vengeance. What connection can anyone who is anti-pre-tribulation suggest to glean evidence that this somehow disproves a pre-tribulation point of view? In both verse 1 and verse 5, John identifies this sound “as what seemed to be the voice (NOT VOICES) of a great multitude.
This voice shouting out is IN HEAVEN. If it is the church shouting out, it is obvious the church is IN HEAVEN. It could also mean the all of the heavenly host is shouting in ONE accord.
Argument #5 against pre-tribulation: Bond-servants, 11:18; 19:2, 5
Who are the bond-servants and when is this era during God’s *time-table? Go back in this passage to better understand this scriptural context and what it reveals:
*JIV NOTE: time is a creation of God (Genesis 1:4). In God’s plan for His creation(s) we must speak of events, not time-tables.
Rev 11:1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the (1) temple of God and the (2) altar and (3) those who worship there,
Rev 11:2 (a continuation from v1) but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.
This era in bible history, now known as prophecy is yet to be played out. 11:3 specifies this prophecy is while the two witnesses from heaven are on the scene in Jerusalem witnessing. It is during the first half of the Tribulation period of seven years (Daniel’s 70th week). Verse 19 states that the Temple in heaven is opened.
Chapter 20, another review of God’s divine plan, explains that this is the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem and the beginning of open war between the power of darkness and Jesus Christ. There is additional symbolism where Revelation 12:6 states that she fled to the wilderness after her son was “caught up to God and to HIS throne.” Again, the simple question is… what has this to do with a pre-tribulation rapture of the church be it a correct or incorrect view when the scripture used to support an anti-pre-tribulation view isn’t even discussing the church?
Verse 7 of chapter 12 is quite plain. “Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back…, “
A quick review before plowing forward: this passage takes us back to when Satan and his rebelling angels (followers) were cast from heaven to earth. This explains Satan’s domain on earth. But, verse 10 of chapter 12 adds a summation of then and the soon-to-be New NOW!
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, (Lord’s Prayer: thy kingdom come, they will be done on earth as it is [after Satan was cast out] as it is in heaven) emphasis mine. When Christ returns to earth his will is done on earth. He is of the Tribe of Judah, the line of King David, and from whom the scepter will never be removed; Genesis 49:10. Geological fact: When Christ returns to earth he will stand on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4) and it will divide to the north and the south. Geologists have determined that there is a natural fault line precisely as Zechariah describes a split in the mount; i.e. Valley of Megiddo. JIV NOTE:Armageddon??? The geological institute in Tel Aviv discovered a major fault line running right through the Mount of Olives. It takes a line from the Mount Olives over to the Kidron valley all the way into the valley of Hinnom . The fault line follows the Kidron Brook which empties into the Dead Sea.
Read http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-s-largest-underground-water-source-discovered-near-jerusalem-convention-center-1.365216 for additional secular facts to back up other prophecies of the New Jerusalem.
Conclusion? The casting from heaven and the roaming to and fro of Satan on earth is viewed by John. He will later have additional insights per the continuation of events during the Tribulation We will discuss them later in our study. One might easily put Revelation 11:18 in a predestination category. Remember that John is viewing multiple future events: past, present, and future while getting a lesson and review of how it all began. This helps John see the whole picture and probably why he had to “SEAL UP” some of these predestined events until they are revealed on God’s sequence of events. Perhaps since tears are not wiped from our eyes until chapter 21, we too will get a heaven-side view as did John of *events during the tribulation. *Events are all played out prior to “the wiping of all tears from our eyes.
19:2 & 5“ …for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality, and has avenged on her the blood of his *servants.”
*The bond-servant argument against pre-tribulation views; i.e. “servants” in the above are those souls under the throne; those who follow Christ during the 7 year tribulation.
The judgment of the great prostitute is a foregone conclusion; again, a judgment yet to happen but unavoidable by Satan’s team of deceivers. This is what predestination actually means. Just as Christians are predestined or appointed of God that once we accept Christ as our Lord and savior, we are predestined to be(come) sons and daughters of God the Father. The avenging on her the blood of his servants is a post judgment that has already been determined by God the Father. This is a historical event that is to come. This is another example of trying to disprove pre-tribulation by not understanding or deliberately avoid the context of the passage.
Argument #6 against pre-tribulation:Our brethren, 12:10
…for the accuser of our *brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. *accusing since the Book of job to the present.
How this is an argument against pre-tribulation is a mystery to me. Adam, Methuselah, Noah, Seth and Shem, Abraham, and John himself are “our brethren.” So is the Christian reader of this document. Satan began accusing God’s human creation at the Garden of Eden with the deception of Eve. So what’s new? This doesn’t even qualify as a receptacle capable of holding any argument against pre-tribulation beliefs. This isn’t a stretch of the truth, whole truth and nothing but the facts; it is total bible revision in an attempt too make it fit some ones doctrinal platform or plank in his or her denominational platform. I am almost embarrassed to assess their shallow claim as evidence presented to refute pre-tribulation. Context, context, context. Did I mention context? Argument #7 against pre-tribulation: the rest of her children; 12:17 (our final review for this blog)
“Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the *commandments of God and hold to the **testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.”
*The commandments of God (Old Testament)
**Testimony of Jesus (New Testament)
Once again we need to understand the history that is here being played out. This is all about the Nation of Israel. The “woman” gave birth to a son. Then she fled to the desert just as Joseph and Marry fled to Egypt to avoid the death order of King Herod on all children under the age of 2. This is paralleled in the Old Testament when the Pharaoh gave orders to kill all children under the age of two when hearing about the birth of Moses. This woman in Revelation is symbolic of Mary who gave birth to the future Messiah of Israel and the one who provided the plan for salvation. Jesus was taken to heaven until the fruition of end time is ordained of God the Father. Mary and Joseph are from the Tribe of Judah. Her offspring are the Jews as they are identified today.
This covenant between God and Israel is exclusive to them. The church does not fit into this passage even with a stretched but well intending imagination. The Judeo-Christians of end time see the errors of their ways. They become followers of the real Messiah. Satan, who is not then restrained, will try to destroy them. This takes us to the great war against Israel when the nations of this world align themselves against her; the *200,000,000 man army outside the walls of Jerusalem. We can see this happening on the news of today as world opinions are turning against Israel. The pieces are falling into place, but this argument of making war against her offspring as proof the church still on earth is shallow at best. There has been “offspring” since Adam and Eve yet God flooded the world on “some of her offspring.”
*Revelation 9: 14-16… This passage alone is a huge challenge to those who want to suggest that the church is referenced in Revelation chapters 4-19 and there is no pre-tribulation church rapture. This huge army does not align itself against the church for one good reason; it is no longer here. Only Israel remains as part of God’s elect and chosen.
Conclusion: I do the research and report. YOU decide. Maybe you should also do some research and not take anyone’s opinion for an eternal yet very personal decision. The Tribulation and God’s judgment is not a laughing or “for discussion” only issue or possibility. It is not a matter of IF, but of WHEN. When ‘when’ becomes “the when,” it becomes a then and no longer a choice.